Episode 130: Celebrating A Year of Passion, Purpose Profit: How to Sidestep The Hustle and Build A Business You Love
This is a very special episode where Fiona celebrates one year since her book, Passion, Purpose Profit, How to Sidestep The Hustle and Build A Business You Love, was published. In this episode, Fiona answers questions from two small business owners, James from Forty Winks Bendigo and Petrina from Petrina Turner Design that may be helpful for your business, too. She also expresses her gratitude to everyone who supported her book since day 1. Thank you!
To purchase your copy of Passion Purpose Profit click here.
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
When Passion, Purpose, Profit was released
Question #1: James Boyd, Forty Winks Bendigo
Fiona’s response
Question #2: Petrina Turner, Petrina Turner Design, Story of Things
Fiona’s response
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources mentioned:
Episode transcript:
Hello, and welcome to Episode 130 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast. Today, it is an interview episode. And it's a very, very different type of episode. So today, if you're listening to this in real time, it is the second of September. And this is exactly one year since my first book, Passion, Purpose Profit, How to Sidestep The Hustle and Build A Business You Love came out into the world. Now this time last year, we were in deep dark lockdown. And unfortunately, where I am in Melbourne, we are still in the same position, which I know is shocking to so many, it was very shocking to myself to be here again, I was hoping to do a kind of really fun party for my book because I didn't get a chance to do that last year. But instead here we are. And you know, first world problems, I guess, lots of people are going through so much tougher stuff. So I'm not going to reflect too much on that. But yeah, this time, a year ago, I was in the same office, looking at my book being shown all over Instagram by people who are not in lockdown. And I absolutely adored seeing all those photos, I loved people sharing it, I loved people tagging me, I loved the 1000s, literally 1000s of DMS that I've received in that 365 days since it first came out from business owners across the globe, from Italy, to Malaysia, to Germany to London to Texas, to all over Australia, New Zealand, Japan even telling me about they've read the book, and this and this and this has changed as a result, I absolutely I cannot tell you how much it means. I'm trying not to cry.
For someone who wrote that book, in a very short period of time. I had about three months to write it. And my goal with writing it was to really make a lot of this information accessible to everyone. I have not made it any secret that I grew up in a family where education was massively prized, massively not just you know, tertiary kind of education or booksmart. But really education about life to really understand other people, to treat people with kindness, to be curious about things. My parents were both massive travelers, they loved being in different communities, different places, understanding different things. They loved food, oh my god, they love food. And they loved, you know, different cuisines. And my mom was always sort of experimenting with things. They both came from a tiny little town outside of Dublin called Bray in Ireland. And they both got out of there pretty quickly. And they just traveled as much as they could actually my mother, who passed away in 2017, was on a holiday the week prior and the day of that she passed away quite suddenly, my parents were always traveling and education was huge. And they always said that if somebody can access education, then that can never ever, ever be taken away from them. And guess part of the reason that we bring out that book was to offer information and education that I have been fortunate enough to learn and understand and come into contact with to lots of other people who perhaps have not had that opportunity because of the career path they chose, because of all sorts of situations.
My father particularly used to always say, if you have education, it is access, but you must share that access. And so that's what I did with the book and I wrote it, you know, very tough part of my life. I had just had my second child, like literally just had it had it had him and I started writing kind of a month or two after he was born. My father was also elderly at the time he was kind of his health was declining. And he passed away just months before I submitted the final manuscript. So he, he got to see a draft, but he never got to see the book. And neither did my mom. And you'll notice if you have the book that it is dedicated to my mother.
So today, instead of kind of running a normal interview episode, I wanted to offer a way of saying thank you to people who have supported my book. Now, like I said, I've had literally 1000s, of DMS about the book. And it has been wonderful. And I kind of reached out to a couple of people who really stood in my mind when they kind of in my memory, when I think about the people who shared my book.
Now, like I said, I was in lockdown. And even though my book was being sold in major retailers like physical retailers, as well as so many small businesses, and independent book shops and places like Happy Valley, Think Thornbury, Avenue bookstore readings, so many places, I didn't have the opportunity to go into those places for a few months. So what I did is I asked people on social media, if you see my book in a physical shop, could you please send me a photo, because I'm in lockdown, there are no book shops within five kilometers of my house, or there is one vintage bookshop. But my book is only a year old, so doesn't qualify.
And so one that I really, really remember. So clearly getting was from this man, James Boyd in Bendigo. And he said, Here I am in Bendigo, I met demyx. And here's your book. And he didn't know me. And I didn't know him. And I just remember, I literally looked it up today, because I was like, okay, when when did he send it, he sent it pretty much, almost like, within 20 hours of the book being out so early the next day, he sent it. And I remember seeing this and just like crying because I was like, I have a real book. And it's out in the world. And somebody I don't know, has just sent me a photo of it. And I was just so excited. I will always remember receiving that photo, because I just, it wasn't from a friend. It wasn't from family, it was from someone I didn't know who had taken the time out of his day to take a photo of it and share it. And it just meant so much to me.
So what I want to do today was to say thank you to some of these people. And I only kind of pick two because I didn't have a whole lot of time to you know, this episode is the longest episode that we've ever run. But I didn't have the time to be able to get three or four or five people on the on the call. So today's episode is these people. So there's two of them. There's James Boyd from Forty Winks in Bendigo. And there's Petrina Turner, who runs Petrina Turner Design and Story of Things. And what I said to them was, thank you so much for your support of my book. And also what I would like to do is as a way of saying, Thank you, I'd like you to record yourself asking me a question.
So any question anything to do with business? Anything that you would like my help on? And I will answer that question on the podcast. That's exactly what today's podcast episode is. So James Boyd has sent in his question, and that will play in a second. And Petrina is after him, she's got it quite a different question.
So I really hope that you enjoy this, wherever you're listening from. I think that the questions that both James and Petrina sent in very common challenges that come up for small business owners, regardless of how big your business is, how long you've been in business. And I hope that my answers, give them and also give you some ideas for solutions and ways to overcome those challenges. And I also just want to say, yet again, a massive thank you to every single person who has supported this book, it was my absolute dream, to get a book deal with a major publisher and to get that book, not just published in Australia, but all over the world. And to see my book in a Japanese online ecommerce places and to see it in just all these different places in the US and to get people from easily sending me photos of my book. It's just been overwhelming and amazing. And I have all of you to thank for it because I know that so many people came across the book because somebody referenced it, sent it to them, shared it with them, lent them a copy.
So thank you, from the bottom of my heart to every single person who has read purchased shed, or come across and celebrated Passion, Purpose Profit, if you have not read it, and you're listening to this thinking, Oh, well, I need to get into that group. You can find a Passion, Purpose Profit, how to sidestep the hustle and build a business you love at pretty much all online retailers. You can also find it at many, many, many independent book shops and small gift stores. So please, if you can support your local and buy it from another small business owner. You can find out more about it through the hands It grant website or you can find information at mydailybusinesscoach.com/my book. Before I jump in, I would just love to acknowledge the traditional owners and the land on which I record this podcast, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and I pay my respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been seated.
Alright, let's get into today's first question, which is from James Boyd at Forty Winks Bendigo. Here he is.
Hi, Fiona, and thanks for this opportunity. I really appreciate it. So to start with, my name is James Boyd, a second generation family-owned business of Forty Winks Bendigo. We established the business in 1997, where we're committed to building a respected and sustainable business for Bendigo, investing and supporting in our people to provide the best in class experience for our customers and to give back and support the Bendigo community where we can.
So my question to you Fiona is one of the greatest challenges in our business today would be the hiring of staff. That's one part of the business that I am not great at yet. Emphasize yet. My question to you is more around the hiring process. So right from the start of advertising the role This is normally done on seek shortlisting the applicants. So what should I be looking for in a resume? wWhat sort of stands out the interview process? So what are the right questions to ask and continue that sort of conversation with the with the applicant? And then to the point of bringing their references? So what is it that I'm looking for when I ring the references? What questions should I be asking? Because if they have them down as a as a reference, then we really already know what they're going to say. So what are those questions that I can ask to try and get the right result and the right applicant for the role? So that would be my question. I'm really looking forward to hearing what you've got to say, and keep up the great work. So James Boyd Forty Winks Bendigo, you can find us at fortywinks.com.au. Thank you very much.
Thank you so much for this question, James. And again, just for all your support of my book I have so so so appreciate it. As I said in the intro, when I got your photo, it was one of the first that I got. And I remember showing my husband, and he was like, Who's that? And I was like, I don't know, but he's just seeing my book, and it's in an actual store. And it was just so exciting. I think that was the day after it came out. So thank you so much.
So on to your question, challenges around hiring of staff. So this can be such a tricky one. And I know that a lot of people believe as do I that people can be your best assets. And if you've got great people, it's easier. It's not necessarily easy, but it's easier to work on other parts of the business, because you're not stressing about that person's let me down again, or why can't they just do their job or they're stressed or you know, that that sort of stuff really is one of the biggest things that keeps people up - money and stuff. So I totally hear you on it's a really challenging part of things. What I would ask you first to consider is you mentioned in your language, I'm not great at this. And you said yet, which I loved. It's obviously part of the book that I talk about as well. And I love Love, love that you've said yet.
What I would ask you to think about and even write down is what would great look like? Is great that people stay on board for this many months or this many years is great that I would have more time back because they wouldn't need me as much? Is great that, you know, people are reliable, like what does great in terms of the hiring process look like for you? And what would it feel like if you were great - to use your word - at this? So that's the first thing I would ask you to consider.
The second thing is, have you done things like a skills matrix before you hire? So I know you asked about the actual process. And you started off by saying we you know, we put ads on seek, but I think there's work that needs to be done prior to that. And you may have already done this, obviously you said this has been a business that's been in your family for some time. So a skills matrix and I have a free one over at mydailybusinesscoach.com/freestuff.
But a skills matrix is basically you figuring out what is the ideal scenario for somebody joining this business. So instead of kind of going, "Oh, we need more retail staff. I'm just going to put out an ad and see." You're really going to look at what does The business need to achieve its goals. And a skills matrix can be a really good thing to help you with that. So what it is, it's basically you can just draw on yourself, you don't have to get downloadable, it's just if you want to, that might be easier. But you can create a sheet of paper, you can go to an Excel file, whatever it is.
In the first column, you're going to have all sorts of tasks or outputs of the business. So say, for instance, and you could create them by department, or you could just create a whole long list, you could have things in there that haven't been done yet for the business. So say, for instance, you're like, we want to be more consistent with social media. So you might put social media, maybe you want to do PR, and you haven't done PR, so you might put PR down there. And what you're going to do is put all the outputs all the tasks for the business, then you're going to look at the staff that already exists in the business. And next to that first column, you'll have three more columns, you'll have skills, interest, and experience. So you want to think about is there anyone already in the business who has skills in this area, and experience and interest? And the reason that you kind of want all three to be ticked is that someone in the business might be really good at social media, maybe they've got skills in it, and they've had experience, but they absolutely hated doing social media for the last job, it made them stressed, they didn't like looking at their phone all the time. And so they have no interest in it. And so you really want to be getting at least the interest ticked, that's where you can grow, you can you can help people develop the skills and get the experience. But if people are not interested in that, then that's potentially where you're going to outsource that, or hire somebody else in or, you know, depending on budget and other things, sometimes you as the business owner have to take on that until you can find somebody who is interested in it.
And so you've got the first column, which has all the tasks and outputs of the business, and then skills experience and interest. And so what you might find is that there's somebody in the business who, maybe you don't have a graphic designer, but you've got somebody in the business, who actually really loves creating graphics, maybe they work in Canva. And maybe they've got a strong interest in it. And maybe they've got experience, maybe they run like a little business themselves on the side, maybe their mum has a business. And so they do the graphics for that. And so they've got a bit of interest, they've got a bit of experience, and potentially the skills is where you want to upskill them. So you might pay for them to do a short course, on graphic design or, or something else that's going to help, maybe you're going to, you know, give them some work to do. And so instead of you thinking, Oh, we have to outsource a graphic designer, you've by looking at the skills matrix, have thought, you know what, Jenny loves doing this, maybe we could look at her role and kind of change things.
So that's the first thing because a skills matrix can actually allow you to see kind of gaps in what's missing, and then create a job for somebody who's coming in, and you're going to get the person that can come in and fill these sorts of things that are missing in the business. So that's the first thing to figure out what skills, experience and interest are missing from the business currently. And potentially, if you've say you've moved through, I don't know what the staff situation is. But so you've moved through a couple of stuff, you might also look at the skills matrix and consider kind of in hindsight, you know, this isn't this needs to be done. And actually, none of them had an interest in this. So it was it was kind of going to work out that they may not have lasted that long.
Again, I'm not saying that's what had happened. But I know that you know, in my own experience with things or in places I've worked places I've consulted to this has often been the case we hiring somebody, and they actually have no interest in what they're doing. And so they're thinking it's more glamorous role, or it's, you know, whatever it is. So you want to look at the skills matrix. And again, if you James are listening or anyone else, you can find the skills matrix over at mydailybusinesscoach.com/freestuff. We'll also link to it in the show notes as well for this episode 130. So that's the first thing kind of figure out what do we need? What do we actually need?
The second thing is to look at your systems and processes.
And I so often, I have helped so many companies hire staff, especially when I've done big kind of consulting jobs quite often it is building a team from the kind of ground up for companies where they need a new marketing team or potentially the marketing team isn't working so well. And so you want to think about your systems and processes. So you want to think about what are the functions of the business? And what does each function need to put out? And is there a system and process for this? Have we created things or is all that documentation in our head? And I know that with so many small business owners, that's where it all leaves in their head. And I've worked at companies I've consulted to companies that are really big, and still the CEO will go on holiday and someone will say Does anyone know the password for this? Naah. He's on holiday, we'll have to wait till he gets back, or could you call him? I know he's on holiday. But could we call him? Because there's just no documentation? So your systems and processes really want to start with? What is the system? And this is the kind of what the process is the how. So what sort of things? Do we need to get out? What are our outputs of the business? And then how do we do that?
So in our own business, in my business, sorry, we have Asana, we use Asana, and we have processes listed in lots of different boards. So we have a process board, basically in Asana. And then we have podcasting process, we have Sunday email process, we have a process for new clients that come in. And so it's literally step by step. And I know it sounds really tedious. But that really helps anyone that comes into my business, understand, "oh, okay, the podcast, okay, this is all the steps of the podcast." And as we grow, and as we expand, and maybe we add different things into the podcast, or different email sequences, or whatever, those things are added to that process.
And so it's kind of not impossible, but it's harder for someone to come in and kind of stuff it up. And I know sometimes people think, Oh, well, I'll hire that person in and they can work on the process with me. And that can be a great thing. Maybe you can set up the first draft, and they can help. But there's a great quote from W. Edwards Deming that I often come back to. And he says 85% of the reasons for failure, and kind of business deficiencies in the systems and process rather than the employee. What that means is that really, we're bringing in people who are set up to fail, they're set up to fail, because the system and process isn't there. And it could be things like the onboarding process. So when they join the business, are they really being indoctrinated into these rare values and beliefs, this is how we do our HR if you don't have a specific kind of HR manager. This is you know, how we do our team bonding. This is the process of one to one meetings that we have, you know, if you have any issues in between, please make sure you've sent an email to me, or you've listed these things out before we had the one on one. So we can both be really focused. And on the same page, it could be this is how we track our revenue. This is how we track sales. So I want you to be involved in understanding where the business is going. These are our key goals, anything like that so often is not shared. You know, someone's coming on, depending on what they're coming in to do, you don't necessarily need to be like he is as zero files, he is exactly down to the sense what we're bringing in every day. But you do want to keep people feeling that they're contributing somehow to the business. You don't want to be like, you're the sort of the person that comes in, no one really cares what you do, doesn't really contribute. Whereas if they come in, and they can see this is the org chart, this is where I fit in, this is where the business is going. And this is where we really need you to come on board and live up to the brand values, which are these, these these. And these are real, you know, these are really tactical ways that we live up to the brand values in the business. And so you're bringing that person in, and the system is set up for success.
So that's another thing kind of before you even go into the path of creating the job ad, you've looked at your skills matrix to decide what does the business need, you've then looked at the systems and processes and are these kind of set up for success. And another thing that may be part of your offboarding, process, or exit strategy for people is an exit interview, I don't know if you're doing them I know a lot of businesses do not do them. I know some businesses do them. And they kind of just, they don't do them in person. So you just sort of writing things in a document and hoping they get back.
But I think the best ones are done in person and it can be really uncomfortable can be a very awkward situation, particularly if the person's left in, it's not been an amicable kind of thing, what you can do is invite them in for an exit interview. And it really should be away from the business. So depending on where you are, I know you're in Bendigo. But when things open up, it could be a coffee, somewhere neutral, not in the business with other people watching. For now, it could be on zoom if it needs to be.
And so what you want to ask in the exit interview is things like did you feel supported? Where did you not feel supported? You know, where was the system and process not set up for you to succeed? And so that is going to give you so much gold and so much information as long as they're, you know, up for that discussion. But really understanding why is somebody you know, leaving if they're if they're leaving. And so that's exit interviews can help with the systems and process.
I have a whole video training on systems and processes that's in the good business group on Facebook. If you're in there, I will link it on the same day that this podcast comes out. But James, I will specifically send you an email to it so you can access it. But yeah, we go through the whole systems and processes and how to set them up. It's so so important.
The next thing I know you're probably like oh my god, can you just get to the process of hiring. But the next thing that really needs to be clear before you bring anyone else on board is the values systems, the values and beliefs kind of and how those are rolled into your systems as a business. So with the values, you really want to be thinking about, okay, we've got these values as a brand, how do we live up to them or how we aligned to them internally.
So it's one thing to have external facing values. And a lot of brands have that they have, you know, we're all about empowerment. And then internally, they don't have things to empower their staff. So everything's micromanaged. Or, say, for instance, they don't have like domestic violence leave policy, which really should be empowering women. I know it happens to men as well, but predominantly women in this country, to know that if I need to get out of a situation, I am going to be paid this much money from my business, I have this much leave that I'm allowed to take in that situation. So that's one example.
Another example might be like in my business, freedom is number one value. And so I need to be aligned to that internally as well. And I can feel it, I can, I can really feel it you might gut when I feel that my freedom is being encroached on by my business. Likewise, I have people that work for me. And I will say to them, oh, my goodness, it's really late. Why are you replying to me now? Or like, please don't feel like you need to work on the weekend, like, this just needs to wait till Monday, because freedom needs to be not to something I talk about to business owners about, yeah, let's set up systems and processes. So you got more freedom and energy, I also need to embody that and align that internally for myself, and for anyone else who works in the business. So that's kind of the third thing, too, was third, I'm not really sure what we're up to. But that is the thing to figure out as well, with the values that we say we have at Forty Winks Bendigo are we internally aligning to them. And what I do with clients is I actually get them to list out four - five ways that they're aligning internally and externally, per brand value.
So I'd be getting you to think about all of those things. And the other thing is, you mentioned that this has been a family business, that can be very intimidating for somebody who's not family to come into these because with family, you know, I'd have I'm talking from my own experience. I have three siblings, they're all older, my mom and dad, wonderful before, you know, and they've passed away, but you can talk to family, the way that you don't talk to other people. I know that if my sister and I are like I'm like at it, which we not really at it that often. But if we were or say we were working together, I'd be like, no, that looks absolutely shit. I wouldn't say that necessarily to somebody else in that way, I guess.
And likewise, if my sister says something to me, I know what her tone means. I know, you know, with the look of the eye she can she can tell me so much we have that bond with family. And it can be intimidating for somebody else to come in. So when you're looking at your values, you want to be thinking about are these things that we just think, well, they're inherently understood inside the business? Because you've had this family run business for multiple generations? Or is it? Maybe that's not clear, it's clear to us who are part of the family because that's, that's kind of like the values we have as a family. And it's not clear to somebody coming in? How does the business internally aligned to that particular value?
Alright, so on to the actual questions that you asked, Where to advertise? So you said Firstly, okay, where do I advertise, I advertise on seek, I would be looking at other places as well. So I'd be looking at your local Facebook community group. I know that I live in Warrandyte. And we are a huge community obsessed kind of area. I think there's a population of 5000 here, and there's like 52 community groups. We have 13,000 people in the Facebook group for Warrandyte. And it's a very community minded area. And so people will say, my 18 year old daughter doesn't have a job, has anyone got anything? And people will list it? Or they'll say, Hey, we're hiring at this company. This is what we need. Does anyone know anyone? So don't think oh, gosh, it's a Facebook ad. I might get whatever feedback or anything else, you can turn off comments after a while on your Facebook ad. Hopefully, you wouldn't get anything negative.
But I would be advertising there because that is where your community is. I would be advertising if you're not already in the actual store as well. I will be advertising on there's a group called find a finder's fee in its global group on Facebook. I'd be advertising on your Instagram, as well and be like, Hey, we're hiring. I would be advertising with friends and family. I'd be writing an email to my friends and family and saying, Hey, this is what we're looking for. And maybe depending on who you're writing it to. You might say, in the past, we've had these people apply. It hasn't worked out because of x y z. So what we're really looking for is data data. So I'll be sending it out too far and wide and not necessarily to seek. I know that I'm not nothing against seek. But I know sometimes these bigger places, you'll get a lot of spam and a lot of like just junky, people who are extending their email to every single person, or it's automated.
Which brings me to the next question, which he said, what should I look for in their resume? Every time I've hired people, whether it's been for my own business or other businesses, I have asked specific questions, and I've asked them to answer those in their cover letter. And what that tells me immediately is, if people haven't answered them, they haven't even read the ad. So I'd be putting in specific questions. So things like where do you favorite cafe to go to in Bendigo? What did you hope to get out of 2021? I'd be asking really specific questions, that's also going to give you a little bit of an insight into their personality.
The other thing I'd be asking is, what do you think we could do better as a business? Have a look on our website? What do you think we're not doing? Well, come in to our store? What do you think we're not doing? Well, obviously, outside of COVID restrictions, so I'd be asking extra questions in the application process.
The other thing that you might ask once they get through the application, once you've shortlisted it, or you could ask it from the get go, is, please upload a one minute video of yourself talking to us about anything that you're really passionate about. And so they might upload a video about how they're just obsessed with baking. And this is what I've made. And in COVID, lockdown, I've done this, this, this, again, it's going to give you personality, it's also going to sift the people who can't be bothered. And I'm literally just applying to anywhere and everywhere, from the people who really actually want this job, because they're going to put in a video and making a video these days, everybody has a smartphone, a lot of people are on Instagram stories, and Facebook Lives and TikTok and everything else. And if they can use those things, they can point the camera at themselves for one minute, maybe you'll get someone who's been like, I'm really passionate about climbing, and I'm actually not gonna have the camera on myself, I'm gonna have it on these incredible places around Bendigo that I do climbing up. But again, you're separating the people, like I said before, who just spamming everyone, and you're getting a sense of who this person is, and also the people who really want this job.
In the resume, I'd also be going back to the skills matrix. And once you've done that, and you understand these are the kind of areas that we're missing, then I'd be putting those things into your application process. So please show us in the resume, your skills level, I don't want to 10 in, and then the different systems or software or anything else that they have to use. So really, interestingly, I've worked on recruitment for so many companies. And I actually found it very interesting that I would often say, Okay, these are the platforms we use, on a scale of 1-10, please rate yourself with each of those platforms, it's not to say we are only going to hire people 10 out of 10. But we want to know how you would rate yourself. So and you could even say, you know, on a scale of one to 10 skills, experience and interest, where would you rate yourself? What was interesting is that I actually found that people who are male or identified as male, often for themselves is like 10 out of 10. And what I'd find is that these women are people who identify as women would rate themselves, like much lower, even though they had way more experience. So keep that in mind as well. But yeah, I'd be asking in the resume for things that align back to what you've seen is missing from your skills matrix, because that's really what you're trying to do. You're trying to solve the puzzle of like, the business needs these, we need these from the person. So how can I get that information?
So yeah, and then, in terms of the interview process, so this is something I've had so much experience with a long, long time ago, when I was at Amazon and audible in the UK, I put my hand up and said I would love to be involved in the recruitment. And Amazon has really, really, really tough recruitment for their head office kind of roles. And they have whole assessment days. So people have to go through, firstly, an online exam, then a in house exam, and then a full lack six hour assessment day. And so they needed people from the different departments to come in and work. And so I was trained in recruitment. And that was really, really interesting things like biases that we all have, like, we basically make our mind up in the first three to 10 seconds. being really conscious of that we often want to hire people that are just like us.
And if you go back to the skills matrix, you're thinking about the skills and the experience in the interest that are missing. If you hire 10 people who are just like you, chances are they've got the same skills and experiences you same interests, then you're still left with all these other things that need to get done in the business that are getting done. So when it comes to the recruitment and the interview process, like I said with before with the video, I'd be asking for something prior to them coming through for an interview. So once you get through to an interview, you really want to have just a short amount you don't want to be spending hours When I was when I was interviewing people, you want to have a shortlist that you really, really think a great. So why is that I've done that in the past has been asked people, what's wrong with my website? What do you think could be done better on our Instagram, go through one of our freebies and let me know how you create an email sequence at the back of that. In terms of places when I was like Head of Marketing at Mimco, we had various different sort of requests for people that were coming into, say, head of PR role, we asked for specific questions around our PR and our media presence, our presence on things like social media and influences and things like that.
Because you know, you want to see, firstly, if somebody's going to put in the effort. And when you have people that you think are great, and then you ask them to do something. And then they saying, oh, sorry, I just didn't have time that is showing you one, they're not really that interested in job. And two, potentially, there's time management issues there. Now, it depends on who you're hiring, the level that you're hiring, how much you don't want to be asking them to do a huge amount of work, because you're not paying them yet. You could also potentially depending on what it is that you're hiring to say it's a graphic designer, you might say, we want to send this out, we'd like it to look better, can you create three basic email templates, and we will pay you for your time. And that's again, seeing that they can do the work that they're saying they can do before they come to the interview with you in the interview process.
So you want to be thinking about first and second and potentially even third round interviews, the first interview is to just really get clear on that what they've said they can actually do. So again, in that instance of PR managers, we had people that were like, yeah, I can do this and this in their presentation that like a PDF they sent us. And then in the interview, when I said so can you name 10 people on social media that you think are Brad would be a great fit with for a collaboration or influencer an event. And you saw people to stumble. And you know, I get that sometimes people just have a mental block. But some people who presented are Yep, I'm all over influences. I'm all over fashion people. I'm like totally amazing at that. And then in the interview, they couldn't even come up with two or three names. And I thought my goodness, like two or three, like it would say 10. And then we might say I'll just five is fine or a couple, just whoever you can think of just a couple of people that you might think of. And we might even say we'll come back to that question if you just need a bit more time.
I remember one specific person that I thought wow, you cannot come up with three people's names. So that first interview is to really kind of confirm what they have said they can do, they can do. And in terms of questions in there, you'd be asking things like, tell me about when this happened? Specifically, what was your role? So that's another thing you often find people will talk about, oh, this happened and this happened. But they actually had nothing to do with leading that it was their manager, it was somebody else, they were kind of there for the ride. So you want to be asking specifically how did that happen?
In terms of say, for instance, what I'm imagining you might be hiring for retail staff, if you're looking at, you know, what was your budget that you needed to get to? How do you like to work? How did you get to that? How did you incentivize yourself? How did you motivate yourself when when you felt like you was so far from hitting your budget for the day? asking those sorts of questions. Again, it's really narrowing down on what did you do, and you can actually do what you're saying in your CV that you can do the second interview.
So once they've proven any like, yep, you often will have a lot of people that can do what they say they can do. And that's great, you've got the skills, kind of pool of people, the next interview is to really make sure that they're going to be a good fit for the company. And this is really where you're going to look at core competencies. So this is what I asked clients to come up with is, what are the core competencies. So really, those are the things that your organization wants to be known for, or your brand is known for, or internally like kind of aligning a bit with your brand values. So it might be that one of the competencies is that you cultivate trust and security, or that you listen actively or that you deal well with ambiguity. So you can Google core competencies list. And you'll find a bunch of them and then think about, you know, coming back to your values and beliefs as a brand and your skills matrix what do we most need.
So if you are a company like a big ecommerce brand, like places that I've worked before, often dealing with ambiguity is huge. working under pressure is huge, because online retail changes so quickly, and you've got to keep up with them. And especially coming into the season that we're in at the moment with kind of q4 coming around and really, October, November, December and even January with the sales period. That is high pressure. And I know that because a lot of those companies are depending on that quarter. To bring in 50%, if not more of their total revenue. So you might look at your core competencies list and decide what are the kind of like five to six, that we as a brand, need people that we're hiring to have? And then you would create questions around each of those. So tell me about a time when you had to deal with ambiguity. How did that go? Tell me exactly what happened. Tell me the story. And then tell me how you deal with that. Oh, tell me how you deal with ambiguity in your personal life? How does that come up? Everyone is dealing with it right now with COVID. And so what you're getting is not so much, Hey, tell me how you get your budget. Or, Hey, tell me that you're a great communicator, you're going to be on the floor of our shop, talking to people, because in the first interview, you've already understood that they can do that.
The second interview is how you actually really going to fit in with what we need as a business. So that's asking the questions around core competencies, and making sure that they fit that they're going to be a fit that they can deal with ambiguity. Maybe there's somebody who is like, I hate high pressure environments. And you're like, well, I'm sorry, but this is a high pressure environment, and it's just not going to be a fit. And that's nothing against their skill set. They could do the job. But it comes back to that skills and interest and experience. They don't have the interest. They don't want to work in a high pressure environment. Some people love that some people don't. So that is sort of with the interview process, the interview process as well. I'd be asking people, things like, how do you like to be managed? We'd be asking random questions that they're not expecting, like, what did you do last night? I often ask that when I start a like, as an icebreaker exercise, when I start a strategy session with corporate clients, I'm like, Okay, let's go around the room. What did you do last night? Because people aren't expecting that they're like, Oh, God, do I say that? I watched this really cool documentary and look at it. Or do I really say that I watch trash TV and ate takeout on the couch? So you want to be asking a mix of the competencies. But also, I guess in the first and second interview, you could be asking those kind of surprising questions, things like, here's a common complaint. How would you deal with bad things? Like, why do you want this job? Why do you want to work here specifically? I remember when I was at Amazon, and I was interviewing people for marketing, because I was working in marketing. I said, somebody wants, why do you want to work at Amazon?
And she said, Well, Amazon, like, brings in heaps of money. So I'm assuming I get paid really well. And I want to get a house. And so I don't really care where I work. I just want to get that money so I can get a house. And I was like, okay, firstly, Amazon doesn't pay. Well, it's very frugal. But yeah, that doesn't actually say that it's Amazon, you want to work out? It's saying I will work anywhere, as long as there's money because I want to buy a house. So you want to be asking questions that might get people to think a little bit more, even things like what annoys you? What annoys you about working in a job like this? If they've had that experience before? How do you deal with people that are just challenging or don't like gel well with your personality? Also things again, like I said before, what could we do better? So you mentioned in your resume, that you had a look on our website, and you think this nice, nice, tell me about that. Tell me about that.
And what you're doing is you're pushing those people to talk about things that are awkward, like it's uncomfortable to say, actually think that when I came in store, you know, this part was really messy, or no one actually greeted me, or the person behind the counter was really rude. No one wants to say that to a potential employer. They're like, Oh, God, that could be their daughter that I'm kind of bagging out. But to ask those questions, is making sure that that person could speak up about things when they come into a business. And again, this goes right back to the start when I said, you know about exit strategy, interviews, or exit interviews, making sure that people feel that they're supported and that they can speak up, and maybe the interview process, you're going to be asking them those challenging questions that they haven't had to think of before. So it's not just about Okay, tell me about you worked at Kohl's. Yep. Tell me about how that went. What did you do there? Oh, that sounds really good. Okay. You're asking really challenging probing questions. And you're also getting them to think about the place that they're, you know, wanting to be employed at?
Another question might be if money were no object and didn't have to work, you'd have to come to get a job here. What would you do? And that just might be, again, a bit of an uncomfortable thing, because maybe they would never work in retail if they didn't have to, for example, or maybe they're like, you know what, I love talking to people all day. I just love it. I couldn't be somebody who even if I had all the money in the world sits at home, let's say outside of COVID times. You know, they might say I just love doing this. I love it. And this is what I'll do. Even if I had all the money in the world. I'd love to work in retail because I love chatting to people all day I get a buzz, getting a sale. And so you're getting that real personal information that is going to help you assess whether this person is right for the role or not. So that was kind of the question around interviewing.
And also bring in in the people that they're going to be working with. So one person, you know, would have like four people interviewing somebody. But what I would do is, once we've identified that first interview, these people can do what they've said they can do. The second interview, when we're talking about core competencies, I would also bring in, say, when I was head of marketing at Mimco, I would bring in the PR, so when we were hiring for head of PR, the PR manager, I brought in the manager of digital and the manager of content, because those three had to work really closely. And they all reported up to me.
And so what that did was it allowed them to see their peers, potentially their peers, and to kind of get a feel for them, and to also get a feel for the person who was going to be working with them directly, which was not me it was these other two, they could get a feel for the person as well. And I got, you know, a real sense of this is who we want, we went back to the kind of skills matrix, and do you reckon those people will fit. And in some cases, having that extra person in the interview, really allows them to like, catch things that maybe you didn't both good and bad? So that's kind of the interview process?
And then in the references? So yes, I think you brought up kind of between the lines, if what you're saying is, we know that when you give a reference, you're pretty much gonna get someone who's gonna say something good about you, you're not gonna ask the boss that you absolutely hated to be a reference for you, that just doesn't really happen.
So I think what you're saying is, we know that it's going to be pretty positive. So what I would be asking again, is, what do you think they do if money was no object? What kind of career Do you think they'd have? What sort of job and they might, again, this person might bring up something that is so interesting that you didn't know. The person might say, Oh, well, actually, she is really into mountain biking. And I think that, you know, if she was younger, or if times are different, she might be going after the Olympics. And you're like, wow, okay, that is telling me one, that she's concerned about health and fitness to that she's quite determined, and she has passions outside of just normal stuff. Three that she's fit, she's kind of got these goals in mind. And she's a goal oriented person, which could be exactly what you're looking for.
So I'd be asking them, how did they get on with other staff, I would ask them, what really annoys them, frustrates them when they were working with you what frustrated them. And again, people might say nothing frustrated them, they're perfect. And it's like, no, all of us get frustrated by things at work, I'd love to know what frustrates them so that we can create an amazing opportunity for them, and understand those frustrations and, and kind of reduce or remove those sort of situations for that person.
So it'd be asking about that I'd be asking about, what did they need to feel supported? Like? How do they like to be managed? What do they need to feel supported? What else could I do to be the best boss for them? And I'd be asking those kinds of questions, as opposed to tell me how they worked with you. What did they do? Because he should really know that by the first interview, and even before that, potentially, I'd also be asking things like, what motivates them? What inspires them? What do you think inspires them in their work or in their career?
So I know, I've talked for goodness me, the 37 minutes, I just had a look at the timer. But I really hope that that helps and gives you some stuff to think about James and yeah, I would really, like I said, just go over. Why do you think you're not great at it? What would great look like, go through the skills matrix, look at your systems and processes are they set up for success, make sure you're implementing an exit interview for anyone who leaves so you can then look at the systems and processes again, through their eyes and through that lens and see what could be changed. And look at your values and beliefs as a business, making sure those are aligned internally, not just brand values that external only be looking at going to a wider community group. So your Facebook community, your friends and family are the local businesses that might have had, you know, maybe they hired a whole bunch of people recently. And there was some really great people, but they couldn't hire all of them. You know, if you're on familiar terms with them, maybe saying, oh, did you get a whole bunch of people? Is there anyone that you got that just wasn't exactly the right fit for you, but could be a great fit for us? And look at in terms of the cover letter or the resume, really asking some probing questions or asking them to, you know, include a link to a video that they filmed of themselves. Because if you're hiring somebody for a retail, or customer service, sort of in person thing, you want to understand that they can communicate that the way that they come across as friendly and approachable and maybe what you're looking for.
And again, you could ask them to just talk to the camera, or you could ask them to send you a photo of something they really love about living in Bendigo, that sort of thing. In the interview process, I'd be asking in the first interview, specifically, what did you do? Tell me about this, just really getting sure that they can do what they're saying that they can do, you know, asking them questions on the spot. So if someone was to hire me and might say, Okay, what sort of thing forms do you think would help us with our ecommerce store, I would be able to list off a bunch of platforms that can help a bunch of apps plugins. And so someone might say, in a CV, yep, I can do this. I'm really great at e commerce. But ask that question. This sort of stopped. So I'd be asking in the interview process, the first round, you know, what do you do? Tell me about what platform you like to use that sort of stuff. And the second one is really about the core competencies and making sure that now you know, they can do the work? Are they the right fit for your business and what you're trying to look for? In terms of the references, you know, really asking other questions, what frustrates them? What motivates them? How did they like to be managed? You know, just those sorts of things that are not, they're not just stock standard questions about when did they work for you? What years did they work for you? Like they haven't lied on their application kind of thing? I'd be asking the question of, you know, if money were no object, they didn't have to work, what do you think they would do? And just saying what comes out? You never ever know what will come out? And what would just be really eye opening or exciting for you? And yeah, looking at the core competencies list online, and deciding which ones are for you and asking those questions in the interview process as well. I think I mentioned that. But yeah, I really, really hope that helps you, James.
And thank you again, for not just you know, sending the photo the first day, but also for all the kind of feedback and lovely DMs you've sent around the book and how it's helped you, I've just loved reading them. And it just makes all of it seem very much worthwhile. So wishing you and everyone at Forty Winks Bendigo are on best at the moment, especially when we're going through lockdown. And I hope this helps. And if you want to get in touch with James, I'm sure you can contact bendigo@fortywinks.com.au. Perhaps you're somebody who's like, you know what, James, I would be perfect for your store. And if you're hiring, I want to put my hand up. So yes, it's been the go at 40 weeks.com.au. Or you can just check out fortywinks.com.au. And we'll tag James on our Instagram post as well in case you want to, you know, just say hello, toys nice for small business owners to connect.
Speaking of small business owners, the next person that has really shown so much support to me through my book, and it's just a lovely person that I've connected with through the channel of Instagram is Petrina Turner. And Petrina Turner is an interior designer, a stylist, a maker and educator, and a storyteller. And she runs Petrina Turner Design, which you can find at patreon attended design on Instagram. But she also is 1/3 of the team at behind Story of Things, which is an online boutique that really champions Australian design. And you can find that Story of Things.com.au. But here is her question.
Hello, Fiona, it's Petrina Turner here. I'm so excited to be here with you today. And thanks so much for having me. I'm a small business owner and the face and heart behind my small interior design and styling practice Petrina Turner Design, and 1/3 of the beautifully curated online store Story of Things. Even though one is a service business and the other retail the threads that tie them together are a passion for connection, bringing joy and sharing stories, whether it's those of my clients through my interiors projects, or about beautiful creators that Story of Things so that our customers value the pieces they buy because they know a little bit about the person who created them. I'm also passionate about sharing and supporting Australian design, and having my work reflect my personal values around social and environmental issues because I believe everything is personal even in business.
I'm pretty proud that most of my interiors work come through referrals and Story of Things has been growing organically through social media posts and a news since we launched almost three years ago. But I also know that this can limit the reach to other potential clients. When it comes to social media. I'm a visual person and my work is also mainly visual. So I find Instagram works well for me, which I then share to other platforms. I've also been fortunate to have some great writers and other media friends share my work and my words. I have tried reaching out to people of influence that hold similar aesthetics and values, but don't always get a response. And then that little voice of doubt kicks in. I don't want to be a large business. I love being able to give a personal experience to my clients and customers. But I do want to grow. So I'd love to know how to create a rise and then a sustainable flow of clients. I know I could be doing more but I'm just not sure about what to do next or different. And as a small business sometimes feel tired and overwhelmed by the scale of jobs I need to be responsible for on a small business budget and without working 24/7 I'd love some tips on how to grow my small business to more people and how to communicate the right messages to them without feeling overwhelmed or losing sight of the joy my work brings me. Thank you.
Ah, such a good question as well. So many good questions in that short snippet there from Petrina, and thank you so much, Petrina, for all your support of my work and my book and telling people about it and your beautiful photography of it, I so, so so appreciate it.
So from that question, I kind of wrote down a couple of notes, so you won't be able to grow the business, or businesses and then be able to communicate the right messages without feeling overwhelmed. So there's a few things in that. And similarly to James, where I said, there was a couple of things that sort of needed to be done before he could get started on putting out a job ad. I think there's also a couple of things that needs to be done, before you go into actually creating the content or talking about different messages in your marketing.
So firstly, congratulations, because you're so clear on your values, and you're so clear on what your brands - both of them stand for. And you said that really, really clearly I know, I've said that word a few times. But you know, talked about connection, joy, sharing stories, Australian design, and kind of social and environmental issues. And I think that anyone who checks out your work and follows you on Instagram, @petrinaturnerdesign, those things are very obvious. Even when you go to your link in your bio, I noticed that you actually have a number of donation buttons, prior to any way that people can contact you, which I think is good, and also could be sort of tweaked slightly. And I've got ideas about that. So I'll get to that in a second. But I think, you know, firstly, well done on understanding what you're about who you want to talk to how you're different, I think those things are really, really important to get clear on. And it's obvious that you are clear on those things.
The second thing that I think is important to sort of figure out if you haven't already, is to do a kind of basic money mapping exercise, because you talked about having Story of Things and also Petrina Turner Design. But I know that within Petrina Turner Design, you have different sort of offerings that you give. And so I'd love to kind of understand or for you to work through a basic money mapping exercise, so you put just like a circle in the middle of a page, and you work out firstly, what's your survive, figure your absolute minimum. And then what's your thrive figure which is really adding to your absolute minimum, the things that you'd like to do. So your survive figure might be, let's say, I don't really want to put a figure in case people think that that's actually a figure and I have no idea what your figure is, but you have a survive figure that would include all the things that your business needs just to survive. And you could do this for Story of Things, and for Petrina Turner Design.
So you might have things like, say for instance, with Story of Things, if it's on Shopify, you'll have a Shopify cost, like a subscription that you're paying every single month, or an annual fee, you'll have website costs for between attorneys design you might have, you might have an assistant, you might have other people that work with you, you might have programs that you pay for like the Adobe Suite, or CAD or other stuff. And so there's things that absolutely are essential for running the business and they come into your surviving, as does the wage that you pay yourself superannuation work, cover all of those things that have to come in and that just are essential for the business to even exist. And you want to make sure that that survive, figure, whatever you're paying yourself or taking out of the business also covers the survive element of your personal life.
So for instance, in my business, I need to pay myself a wage. And I'm an employee of a company, which is Fiona Killackey Consulting proprietary limited, and Fiona Killackey is a employee of that company, that company also trades as My Daily Business Coach. So I need to know that the money that Fiona collected is being paid from the business is enough for Fiona Killackey to pay her part of the household bills, the mortgage, childcare, home insurance, health insurance, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So then I would take that survive figure so for you, you might have a survive figure for Petrina Turner Design. And if surviving have a Story of Things, and with Story of Things, because you've got other partners in that business, it might be something that three of you do together, I think I heard that correctly, that there's your 1/3 of that. So that would be something that you'd work on together and make sure that everyone is covering their survive figures. Then with both of the businesses, no one wants to just like create the whole business around a surviving because it's just going to be a lot of resentment.
So what you do is you would add to the survive, figure the things that you would love to have in the business and just other stuff. That's kind of like an extra. So for instance, you might decide that once, you know, once we were allowed to travel, that you want to spend X amount of months with Petrina Turner Design, going into state to kind of do research trips or maybe overseas, or maybe you want to be part of trade shows. Or maybe you're doing a pop up or maybe you're collaborating on a product and so you need Have some money set aside for that.
So you'll then have your thrive figure. And that is the number that you're going to put in the middle of a page. And you're literally just going to have the number, smack bang, middle of a page doesn't take, you know, sometimes people think this takes so much time it doesn't. Once you've got that thrive number, you put it into the middle of a page, and then around that are kind of bubbles. So it's sort of like a mind map. And in each bubble, are the different revenue streams.
So from your website, petrinaturnerdesign.com.au, I can see that you have residential interiors, commercial interiors, residential styling, editorial styling collaborations, and then you've got some other stuff. So in terms of the revenue streams, you might have styling as one, you might have interiors, as one, you might have commercial interiors as another, you might have consults as another. And then you've got Story of Things. And that may feed into this or it might be it's completely separate mindmap, depending on how that all financially works for you. And then you have collaborations as well. And so for each of those different revenue streams, you're going to have a goal attached to that. And it's really important to get clear on this stuff, because you want to then utilize that to reverse engineer marketing against it.
So if you think, okay, my goal for residential styling is X amount, then you will then go, okay, if I could break that down, how many jobs would I need to bring in? And what's the average per job? I know these might go up and down. But what's the average? And how many would I need to get to fulfill the goal for that revenue stream of residential styling, you then want to do the same for all the other different revenue streams. So you might have commercial interiors, your residential interiors, the collaborations, all of those will have a goal attached to it. And the next thing that you really want to consider is how many of these different jobs can i realistically do in the time that I have available.
So for example, in my business, one of my revenue streams is one on one coaching. Now I structure my business. So I work three days a week, between school hours, usually, and currently, because we're locked down, I'm having to reduce that even further. But typically, I work Mondays, I have my admin, I do my marketing, I do the podcast, I work with my team, Tuesdays, I do groups. So I have three different group coaching programs.
At the moment, I have masterclasses I'm speaking gigs that I get paid for Thursday is my only day to do one on one coaching sessions. So that's roughly what I will do, I will tend to see about six clients on a first day. So it is back to back. And Thursday, I should say is also my long day, because my husband picks up the kids usually. So I will see people back to back. So let's say I do six clients a week one on one. And on average, each of those clients is paying me $400. Now let's say that I work 40 weeks a year, roughly because of school holidays and other things and taking time off. So there's six clients times 400 per client times 40. So that one revenue stream, so every Thursday for the year is going to be bringing in roughly $96,000. So that is just one revenue stream. And obviously, I will have different ones.
So I have my group coaching programs, I have my marketing for your small business course I have other courses that just sell all the time. And I have as in like sell on evergreen. And I have ebooks and I have speaking gigs and concerts and other things. So you could see that even if I put you in a goal and thought, well, I could get one on one coaching up to 150, I technically don't have the time, because I'm only doing it on Thursdays and I'm only doing it really in school hours or there abouts. I don't have the time to do that without, you know, drastically increasing the prices of my offerings, which I could do, or somehow finding more time in my week.
So that is an example and not to say, oh look at, you know, whatever you think about how much I earn with all the different revenue streams. But it's really to say that you have to one set the goal, but also look at your time available. And this is where passive income products and other things come in that are not so time sensitive. I hope that that is kind of helping you understand when you're looking at your money mapping, you're going to think about what are the different revenue streams for patroon aterna design, what is the goal each of those and then can I realistically fulfill that and this is where it might pair where you kind of come up with things like I had to come up with with passive income products whereas like those passive income products need to bring in a chunk because one on one is making this group coaching is making this speaking gigs are paying me this consulting might be paying me this and then the passive income products have to bring it all up. So that is one example.
And I think it's really, really important for you when you're asking these questions about how can I increase my sales? And how can I get more business coming in? Firstly, you need to understand what is the business I want to come in? And what are the goals around that? How many commercial interior design jobs do I need? How many residential styling jobs do I need? How many education kind of speaking gigs and other things? I know that you do that as well? How much are those going to bring in? And do I even want to do them. And so by working on that, that's going to help you when you then work on your content and marketing and getting the sales happening and getting that stuff out there without it being overwhelming.
Because instead of just say, putting posts on Instagram, ad hoc, sporadically, you're going to have a plan of like, this is what I'm trying to achieve financially. This is what I'm trying to achieve with my brand values. And so what am I putting out to get the result that I'm trying to get, whether financially, whether you know, the brand, and the standing and mission and values and everything else being out into the public arena. So I know that's a bit of work to start with. And it doesn't even get to your questions. But just like James, I think that there's a bit of work that needs to be done first, because it's going to make the rest of it that much easier.
So the next thing I think would be a good thing to look at is when you're talking about, you know, I think a lot of my styling and interior jobs come from referrals, that's great, it's great to understand, Where is that coming from. But the next kind of element to that would be to create a customer journey map for Petrina Turner Design, but also for Story of Things. And really look at that. And again, this can be very simple, it can be a line across a page, just a piece of paper, a line across a page, and just putting in all the different steps between awareness, and then advocacy and retention. So you'll have awareness, and you already said that a lot of your work comes through referrals.
So at the start, you'll have referrals, that is how people are understanding that I even exist, you'll also have Instagram, because you've mentioned that that's a key channel for you, you may have other things as well, you might have that with SEO with something else, you're perhaps coming up high, when people search for interior designer in your location. That could be other ways that people are becoming aware of your business. And so a customer journey map is literally going to allow you to see where are people falling off. So maybe you're getting the referrals, but then those people aren't necessarily converting into the types of jobs that you want. Or perhaps they're not paying the types of, you know, they don't have the budgets of what you would like, or perhaps with Story of Things, people are coming to the website. But the conversion rate is lower than say when they come through an email.
So if they've come through Instagram, you might get more people coming from Instagram, but then spending less or they're not spending at all. And therefore you'd then be looking at Instagram and being like, Okay, what can we tweak here to get the right people coming across and spending money. Or when they come to the website, which is again, in a customer journey map, they've come, you know, someone's told them about it, they've come to Instagram, they've come to your website, they've come to a product detail page or a category or a group of products such as a father's day campaign. And then what are they doing? And you're kind of tracking that? Because, again, when you talked about how do I kind of keep this sustainable knowledge is power, understanding where in the buyer cycle or where in the customer journey they are dropping off, allows you to then market more in that pain point.
So for instance, if you're finding that a bunch of people are coming across to your website, let's say Story of Things, and they're coming to a category page, let's say accessories, or homeware. And then from there, you're finding they're coming to a product page, and then they drop off. It's like, Okay, let me spend some time and think about what I need to add to that product page. Maybe it's videos, maybe it's testimonials, maybe it's more information about the actual product itself, and see if the conversion goes up. So when you talked about content and the right message, you also want to come back to what are we trying to achieve? Because it's one thing to put out a whole bunch of content. But if that content is not guiding people through the journey through, you know, taking action, whether that's signing up to an email, actually purchasing something, contacting you about a design job, then in a way that content might be there to educate and inspire. And that's great if that's its only purpose, but if it also has the objective of driving sales, which it sounds like from your question you want it to have, then you need to be tracking that.
And one way to do that is to create a basic customer journey map. So like I said, it's either a line across a page from where do they come in? Where do they go out, hopefully they don't go out they just you retain them somehow through retention strategies. If you don't know if you're listening to this, whether you're a trainer or somebody else and you don't know how to stop that one thing, you can Do is literally just go through the buyer cycle. So that's a cycle. Okay, a circle basically on a page with arrows, and it's going to have awareness, then people. So how did they find out about you? What kind of marketing are you doing?
So for instance, I know Petrina, you do collaborations, that's a great awareness driver, whether it's collaborations with product, whether it's collaborations with like Instagram stories, whether you're going into different groups and talking, whether you're coming onto a podcast, all of that is helping with the awareness. The next stage is research. And they will then go to your website, try and find out about you check you out on social media. The next stage is evaluation. So this is really important. So it's understanding, okay, what sort of jobs has she done before? Is it similar to what I need? Who is she worked with, where's the testimonials? Where's this kind of social proof. So again, on Story of Things you may have on the product detail page, show us your Story of Things. So you might have, here's our beautiful photographs of this cup. And then here's a bunch of other photographs from users who have told us and customers and valued people hate the word users sometimes, but you know, people who sent in a photo of how they've used our cups. And so we're going to add that, and we're going to see if the conversion rate goes up. And usually it does, I've worked at lots of different ecommerce product places, when you're showing products in real life, or worn by real people, the conversion tends to go up because people can see themselves in that versus a model and a perfect shot going off on a tangent here. But you go through the buyer cycle. So you've got awareness, research, evaluation, purchase, and post purchase.
So one thing that I noticed about your website petrinaturnerdesign.com.au. And this is very common with a lot of people in the service space, particularly in design spaces, including architecture, landscape architecture, interior design, is that you show these beautiful photos of what you've done, and you You are no stranger to that you've got beautiful photos here. But what happens is I'm then there's nowhere for me to purchase, I'm in the evaluation stage, I'm checking it out. And then there's no way for me to purchase. So what I mean by that is saying I've gone to residential styling, and then I click on the Brighton residence, which looks beautiful. Underneath that I can see photographic styling by you interior design by space, grace and style. Oh, hello, Rebecca, and then photography by Amorpho photography. And that's great. None of those are clickable, none of them take me to get in touch with you. So if I think this is great, and I'm like, Yes, yes, this actually perfect is exactly what I need. I'm at a dead end, I've seen it. It's beautiful. I passed evaluation.
And now I just want to get in touch with you, you're putting the onus on the person in your website, to go back up, find contact, fill in a form and wait, or actually if they go to contact and they scroll down they can, there is no email address from what I can see there's a phone number. So again, you're putting the onus on the individual to be in the evaluation stage, and then find their own way to purchase. Whereas if I was in residential styling, I was in the Brighton residents, and I think this is perfect. And at the bottom, I scroll down, and I've gone through all the images. And then I see a really clear, if you're interested in booking me as an interior stylist, please email us here, da da da da da, or please fill in our form here, click straight through.
So it's not up to me to scroll back up to the page, find contact and go through the whole process, you're guiding me exactly where you need me to go, which is in that biocycle to the next stage, which is purchase. And then post purchase is really the kind of advocacy, retention, newsletters getting people onto content, getting them coming to events, that sort of thing. So that's another thing to work on before we start getting into the content, which is your customer journey map. So I would be working on those for each of the revenue streams. And again, it doesn't need to be I don't want this to be another thing that kind of you feel overwhelmed by literally a line across the page. Where am I losing people? Where are they not going through the whole process of purchasing and working with me and and becoming loyal customers. So the next thing to do is to consider you mentioned before, sometimes I reach out to people and they don't get back to me and I think he said that little voice of doubt creeps in. And believe me, we have all been there. I have reached out to people and got nothing and you can see that they've seen it and you're like oh you feel it.
But you just have to think sometimes you're just not gonna win every single person over maybe they're just really busy. I know that sometimes I will see DMs in Instagram and I will mean for weeks to get back to that person. And because I've read it and I haven't marked it as unread or maybe I haven't flagged it. I haven't necessarily got back to them quick enough, and I'm sure that I'm sure there's people that I have loved hearing from them. And I've really meant to get back to them. And I haven't.
So I wouldn't necessarily take it as a personal attack, you could also always follow up again, you could also, you know, send another message or just send something funny or forwarded a good post that you think they'd be interested in. But the other thing that is that, are you reaching out to the right people, whether they're on Instagram, or whether it's another form of marketing, such as an email, pitch deck, contacting them by phone, or anything like that.
So one thing that I ask clients to do is to consider the kind of five groups or sectors that they want to connect with. So in your case, it might be you've talked about social and environmental issues that might be one underneath, you might have another one, which is architects because you know, what you do, and architects work closely hand in hand. Another one might be media, I know that a big part of styling and interior design is to get your work out there and seen by people that are flipping through these magazines or looking online for inspiration, and then come across your name.
So one thing that you can do is to think about what are the five groups of people or brands that I'm trying to connect with, not necessarily on social media, just in general. And so then you might say, Okay, I've got those five sectors or brands. And what I'm going to do is try and come up with 20, you don't have to come up with them all at once. But 20, brands, people, companies that are in each group, so say, under architects, you might say, you know what, this is architect across the road from me that I'd love to just really connect with, so I'm gonna put their name down. And then this is, you know, a friend of a friend who I met at a party one time, and they're an architect, and I think they said, they have a small firm, blah, blah, blah, gonna put them down. And then this is the one that I love from Instagram is so inspirational, gonna put them down. And slowly, you'll build that up.
So you'll have 20, in each of the five categories, which is 100 places and people to connect with now, then I'm not going to go into exactly every single stage of connecting, but you want to make sure you're following them, you're engaging, not overly, again, we're not overwhelming, it could just be the odd thing here or there that I'd reply or reaction to a story that you are, then you know, going to connect with them in a real environment. So it could be social media, and it could be using things like voice notes. So I often send voice notes in DMs, because they're much more personal than sending a text message. And they're harder, I think, to ignore, because curiosity gets the better of all of us. So I know when someone sends me a voice note, I will listen to it, because I'll be like, oh, who's this? And as soon as I hear someone's voice, it's just such an intimate thing, that you'd feel somehow connected to them. And you feel like, gosh, if they've, if they've gone to the trouble of leaving a voice note, which actually isn't that much trouble. Then I'm going to reply, I'm going to reply in a voice. And suddenly we're talking to each other. We're literally talking to each other through Instagram, as opposed to just another text message that I may, you know, somehow bypass.
So when you're reaching out to people make sure they're actually the right people, but also have an objective, what's in it for them? Why should they connect with you, maybe it's you absolutely love what they're about. And you think you've got a lot in common. Maybe it's you know, that they're trying to do X, Y Z in their business, and you actually just read this really cool article in the US about a company that's doing something similar, and you thought they'd be interested in it. So you're offering value. It's not all and I'm not saying they're doing this for a second. But it's not all. I want these from you.
Now, occasionally, I'll get a message like that. And it kind of confuses me to the point that I think I don't see a question here, or don't see an offer. I don't see just like a general Hey, how are you going Fiona, or any kind of feedback on like, the podcast or anything else that I'm putting out. So I'm sort of like, not really sure what you're asking for here. So make it really clear. I had somebody recently who just sent me a photo of what they're doing, and said, I need you to share this with your audience. And I was like, I don't know, you never talked to you. I don't even know if you're following me recently. I really am at a loss of where this has come from, because we've never connected beforehand. So I'd be making sure that when you're reaching out to people, it's the right people, hence your kind of top 20 list, but also that you're doing it in a way that's human, and that also has something in it for them. Even if it's just a you know, somebody saying something nice to me. That's really great.
Now, let's talk about content. Because you talked about how I can create content without feeling this sort of sense of overwhelm. And you said you're tired sometimes and I get it. We all so tired. I wish I could just sleep for days sometimes. So the first thing I guess with content is to figure out the objective, what am I trying to do and this goes back to your money mapping, your revenue streams, your brand values, you know, what am I trying to get across as a brand What are the things I'm passionate about? What do I want to share? And then what am I also try to do as a business because you're not just a media company, you're not just creating content for people's consumption, you're creating content to inspire or educate or guide people through your customer journey. And that might sound really harsh, but that is business, we are trying to sell things. And I think sometimes it can feel like, oh, gosh, I don't want to do that. That's really selling out. It's not you're creating a community around your brand values. And you're also guiding people who need what you're offering, to the best way to purchase it from you. So firstly, you can think about like content pillars or content themes, this can be something that really helps people not feel overwhelmed, because they've got a structure to work to. So you already mentioned sort of like seven content, pillars or themes. You mentioned connection, you mentioned joy, you mentioned sharing stories. You mentioned your business Petrina Turner Design, you mentioned Story of Things, the other business, Australian design, and social environmental issues. So without even thinking about it, you have seven core things that you're talking about, repeatedly, but that you also want to be known for.
So you want to be known for a place of connection, you want to be known for somewhere that brings joy. And in your case, you know, bring it into commercial spaces or residential spaces, you want to be someone who's known to share stories, you want to be known for what you do, which is Petrina, Turner design and Story of Things you want to be known for, you know, celebrating and champion Australian design, which is fantastic. And you also want to be known for social and environmental issues. And I want to really commend you on that last one.
Because a lot of businesses shy away from these things, thinking that has nothing to do with my business. And I love that you said it's, you know, business is personal. So you could easily take those seven things. And you could consider, okay, those are the themes. Now, what are the kind of types of things that I'd like to put out. And so I often get clients to think about series, so like questionnaires, interviews, behind the scenes, whatever it is a series, those not dateable. So it's not restricted by time, a daily dose.
So let's really just say, hey, here I am, and kind of stay in front of mind. That could be a quote, it could be something beautiful that you saw today, it could be you and your walk in the morning and being like, Hey, what's everyone else doing, it could be getting a coffee, whatever it is such a daily dose. And then the last of the types are mean, there's lots of different but I get people to think about your series, your daily dose and your short term content.
Short term content is really dateable stuff. So it is like today, the day I'm recording this is International Dog Day. And so you might like I did this morning, you know, putting out a bit of daily dose, but it's short term, once it's been international Dog Day, I don't know if they do this all the time. But you know, it's not going to be international Dog Day for another year. So that's short term. Similarly, maybe you worked on something to do with the hotel, and the hotel is about to relaunch after COVID. And everything is amazing event for relaunching. And you cover that on your social media and any kind of your channels, that is short term content, once it's come, it can't come again. That's where you have national days, that's where you have causes that you're behind.
So say for instance, I know Are you okay Day, September nights, that comes around, you know, once a year, I mean, people should ask that all the time. But you have the type. So you've got your themes, you've got those seven things, then you've got the time series, daily dose or short term, and then you've got the format. Now the format might be in terms of social media, it could be a video, it could be an image, it could be a quote, it could be a graphic with text overlaid. It could be a testimonial, whatever. There's so many different kind of buckets or formats. So it's almost like a puzzle, you're going to put the same with the type with the format. And so you might say, I'm going to have an What am I going to talk about joy, I want to talk about joy and want to do it in a series. So what can I do? Oh, maybe I could ask people that are creative, to give me five things that bring them joy. And every month, I put out that series and it's called my joyful series. And it's all people that are relevant to whatever it is that I'm selling.
So in your case, interior design. So it could be an architect, it could be a furniture maker, it could be a lighting designer, and you're bringing the element of joy, you're also giving it a series. And then your format might be that you're taking that series and creating a blog. And from that blog, you can then create different elements for different channels. Which brings me to core content. And I know a lot a lot that I'm going to covering here. But core content is an acronym. I've talked about it before. And lots of my clients know it, they're probably laughing going, oh, here she is. But core content really is an acronym for create once repurpose everywhere. So you want to think about the content first. I always say to people think of a content first mindset, not a connection channel mindset.
So often what our problem is, is that we think, Oh my God, I've got a post on Instagram X amount of days a week, what am I going to post? Whereas if you think of core content, you might think, where is the source content. So in my case, a lot of the stuff that we push or guide guide, not push. But we have a podcast, this podcast is core content. So this is the start. And it's the source. And so we have that we also have my Sunday email. So we have the core content at the start, we have what are we talking about? What's the theme, then what's the best medium to deliver this theme. So for you, it could be a blog, it could be a podcast, it could be anything else that you own. So it could be a vlog, it could be videos on your website, you ideally want it to be somewhere you can control, you can't control social media, I have had clients and I do a great job of creating their core content, in terms of an Instagram Live, that happens once a week at a certain time. And that's great. It's building community.
What they've also done then is created a collection of all those Instagram lives on their website. So they'll have this thing that happens every week. And then they'll say, hey, to check them all out, click over to our website. So now they're driving you to the traffic to the website, where they are potentially then going to guide you to sign up to an email to purchase something to work with them to get in contact all of those things. So your core content, ideally should be not on a social media platform, because you cannot control that. You want to use those social media platforms to build community and all of that. But you want to have your core content, as I said, either a blog, a blog, a podcast, or something else. And I guess what I'm getting at here is you wanted to you said one of your questions was how do I communicate the right messages?
Well, you've got the content themes that you've gone through. So connection, joy, sharing stories, Petrina Turner, Story of Things, Australian design and social environmental issues. And then you've got the series and you've got the formats to decide on what is the core content? So do I want to create a blog every single month? So if you have 12? Are you going to do 12? On connection? Are you going to do a mix of you know, to one connection to one joy to Australian design? And then you know, you've got six left to go with, you know, the different other themes that you have? That you want to understand? What is the objective of the content? What is the medium that's best suited for my audience? And then where am I housing that content in a place that I own? How can I then use connection channels like Instagram, to guide people from social media to my core content?
I'm hoping that makes sense. In terms of Instagram, you mentioned that that is a key channel for you. And similarly in my own business. So I think it's fantastic that you're using that. I would caution potentially just copying the exact same content for the different social media platforms. And I would look at how can I do one social media platform? Really well, really, really well just own it, and be driving people from that to a place that I own? How can I build that community up there, as opposed to I'm going to do a bit here. And then I'm going to kind of just repurpose it everywhere. Another platform that you might want to have a look at another connection channel for you could be Pinterest, because your audience is already there. If people are thinking about renovating their home, chances are they've put together a mood board on Pinterest or they're thinking of starting once they're already in that space. So you want to meet your audience where they are.
So it could be that your audience is just not on Facebook. So do you really need to be posting on Facebook? What's the objective there? And again, going all the way back to the start? How are you analyzing if that is doing anything in your customer journey map. So in terms of Instagram, let's just talk about that for a second. It can be really, really overwhelming. But again, like all content, you want to think about what is the objective, and you want to be analyzing what actually works.
And again, this can sound really scary, but it doesn't have to take long. One way that you can format or create a framework for Instagram is to sort of work with the 432 method, which has been around for a while since I think, you know, Instagram kind of began and people started using it for business. So let's say maybe like 2015.
But 432 really works on kind of the nine, nine grid, the nine pack. So four posts would be on value or educational inspiration. Three would be humanizing the brand. So really showing behind the scenes photos of yourself, maybe a salad that you love to eat whatever it is showing a real human element to this. It could be testimonials. It could be you laughing with a client, whatever it is. So you've got four value education, inspiration, three behind the scenes or brand or humanizing the business and in two other hard sell two would be very clearly asking for a sale.
And that's something that we do not do enough as small businesses particularly in the service space, we just don't, we can see that a lot on products and products, probably too, too much so many product based businesses. But when it comes to service space, it's almost like we forget to say, Hey, I'm open for business. And again, similarly, as I talked about your website, and people going through that, and kind of coming to a dead end, they're in the evaluation, they've seen the beautiful photos, now they want to book you, how do they do that, because you're at a dead end. Similarly, on Instagram, if you're talking about something, and I noticed, I just went through your Instagram and had a look at a couple of the posts.
So say, for instance, if you've got flashback to my Flinders Street project, and it's dreamy masterbedroom, and then you talk about it. And then again, it's the interior design, by photography, by photographic styling by and you're not guiding people. And you might think, well, isn't it obvious, they could just go to the link tree and find me, but you're not reminding them that, hey, if you're looking for somebody to help you even virtually while we're in lockdown, and create a real sanctuary in your home, I am currently booking clients in for November onwards, for example, or to get in touch with me to talk about your own dreamy bedroom and ways that you could create something amazing, email us at, or send me a DM, or whatever the other action is.
Or you might say, for tips on how to make your home the most beautiful place that can be, make sure you sign up to my monthly newsletter, which goes out on blah, and you can sign up via the link in my bio, we're often not as straightforward as we we sort of hide behind things that we think are people, you know, people can find me, there's a great user experience book, it's kind of like the Bible of user experience called Don't make me think, and I think we don't use that philosophy enough. So when you're putting something in, and people are like, Oh, my God, I love that drew, it's totally, I'd love my house to look like that. And then you're showing them, this is how it is, this is who did it. And then it stops, it stops. I have no I'm like, oh, and then I'm scrolling. If I'm on Instagram, I'm just gonna go the next thing, as opposed to being stopped and going, you know what I want to be on that newsletter, because, gosh, I really do, I would love some design advice that comes out for free in my new on this newsletter. So you know, I'm gonna take action.
And this is where it kind of leads me to the next thing, which is, make sure that you're looking at your insights, when you're using a tool like social media, like Instagram, or any social media, I should say is that make sure that you're looking at your analytics. And this again, goes back to what is your objective with your content. So if you're saying, You know what, I really want people to not just refer me I want traffic to come from social media to petrinaturnerdesign.com.au, so what I want to do is to be tracking the website clicks from Instagram. And this is where, when I mentioned at the very start, when I go to your link on your Instagram bio, it is showing me a bunch of places that I can donate money to, which is great, and really goes to your social and environmental causes.
But if I'm coming to you and I just want to work with you, I just want to like jump to website, I want to have a look at your portfolio, I need to see that information pretty upfront. So you might have work with me at the top. And then you might have donate to or you can have donate to in the first one and then work with me in the second. But make it really clear and obvious. The other thing that you might want to do is move from link tree to literally having a page on your website. So between attended signed up company slash Instagram and using that link in your bio, because then they're already on your website. So it's easier for them to see things in your navigation.
So say for instance, with mine, we have mydailybusinesscoach.com/instagram. Now this is not a really sexy page at all. It's just a page that my old VA Jess built. And she created buttons so that we could just update the buttons. So it's very much it looks like link trade doesn't look as nice, maybe. But it means that people are already on the website. So if we wanted to retarget them, we could. It also means I mean depending on pixels and other things. But it also means that if I'm on the Instagram page on mydailybusinesscoach.com/instagram, I can also see shop podcast free stuff, my books, subscribe, my Pinterest button, my emails, I can see a bunch of other things outside of the buttons that are there. So I would think about Could I move things from Linktree, which is a great tool and lots of people use it. And I used to use it as well, to actually having a dedicated links page. It could be between petrinaturnerdesign.com/links, doesn't have to say Instagram, whatever you want to call it, but it will allow you to then update that when you need to that people are already on your website. So chances are they can also see the other stuff that you're offering. And it's not like oh I couldn't find it in link tree. So they For, I'm not even going to have a look around her website. So that's, you know, just a comment about the link. But coming back to the kind of insights and understanding what your content is doing for you, like I said, if you are trying to get people to your website, say in @petrinaturnerdesign on Instagram, you want to be tracking what content is doing that for you. And so one way that you can do this is to go to your insights, which you can find you go to your profile, at the top right on a phone will be the hamburger menu, or the three lines. And then you're going to click on insights. And what you're going to do then, and of course, if you're listening to this, and you can't write this down, we do have it in the show notes on mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/130.
But you're going to insight and Firstly, at the top, you can change it from the last seven days, last 14 days, the previous month, you can you can track things. So let's say you just decide the last seven days, which is the default setting, and you go down to content that you've shared. And so you click on that. And what you'll see is the automatic default for insights, which will show your posts by reach in the last year, you want to change that reach because you're interested in website taps. And if you scroll all the way down to the bottom, you'll see website taps. And if you click that, so it won't show you the reach, it'll show you the posts, by the most website taps from top to bottom. And you could do again, you could change it from the last year to the last 30 days, maybe you spend a real month like a good month on really trying to create content that is guiding people to a website. And then you have a look on Okay, out of all the content that I posted, which content, got people tapping the website, because that is the objective of that content. And you'll start to see over time, certain things that are guiding people, maybe it's when you show a photo of yourself more people click on the website, maybe it's when you talk about the blog, more people click on it, maybe when it's you talking about a folio piece, and you're like check out more of the images on my website, you know, tap the link in my bio, it's important for you to start looking at that information. Similarly, you might decide, I really want to have a look at when people visit the profile. Because that may also show that they want to know more about you whether they're going to click on the website link or whether they're going to just look at your grid. So a profile visit means that they are scrolling Instagram, the Instagram, they're showing scrolling gram, and they see your post and there's enough in that post for them to go. I want to know more about this, who is this? Who am I following again. And then they'll click over to your profile until you also want to have a look at profile visits. Because that is going to tell you they're more interested in you that intention there. And potentially they're also going to click on the website. So that is a lot. I know it's a lot to take in. And I hope I haven't overwhelmed you for trainer. But I think with all of those things, they can feel overwhelming if they're new to you, just like anything else. So if you were to ask me about, you know, getting taps and tiles and styling things, I would find that overwhelming to begin with. But if you broke it down into some sort of framework that I could use, maybe I would find it easier. So I hope that that's what I've helped do for you with answering your question. Again, thank you so much for all your support of my book for sharing it with your community. And for being part of today's episode. The reason I wrote this book was to help small business owners. I'm so so so glad that I have been able to connect with people like you, Petrina. So thank you again. And if you want to connect with Petrina, you can do that at @petrinaturnerdesign on Instagram. And you can go to petrinaturnerdesign.com.au. And as she said, She's also 1/3 of Story of Things. So you can find them on Instagram @story_ofthings. One word, and the website is storyofthings.com.au.
I really hope that whether you are James, whether you're Petrina whether you're someone completely different whether you have similar challenges that are coming up in your small business, or you just wanted to kind of listen in and have a sort of voyeuristic moment of like Hmm, what somebody else going through and how it might Fiona answer that. I hope that you have enjoyed this kind of special anniversary episode. As always, the show notes, including links to Petrina and James's businesses will be available at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/130. And if you're listening to this and thinking, Well, I'd like to get my hands on a copy of Fiona's book passion purpose profit, which is turning one today. You can find that pretty much everywhere. But if you have the funds and if you are, you know, near a small business shop, gift shop, bookstore, whatever it is, please try and buy it from them, please support your local bookstore, your local gift shop, because especially where I am in Melbourne, and in Sydney in New South Wales, a lot of them have had a really, really tough 18 months plus, so if you can support them and buy my book from them, I would most appreciate it.
So that is it for today's episode. Again, a massive thank you to James from Forty Winks Bendigo and Petrina from Petrina Turner Design and Story of Things, for sharing themselves so openly on this podcast, I really hope that you both got something from my answers. And thank you again, really, really, really thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your support of my book, and to everybody else out there who has shared my book who has mentioned it to a friend who has referred it who has gifted it to somebody who's bought it, who has sent me a DM literally I'm crying. It just means so much. It really really means a lot. So thank you. And that's it. I'll see you next time. Bye.
Thanks for listening to the My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram at @mydailybusinesscoach.
